venting feeds the flames

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venting feeds the flames

Postby holley on Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:17 am

Articles I've read indicate that venting increases aggression and hostility .

Don't yell at me about this....

Any research to support or not support this would be of interest,
Last edited by holley on Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Spock on Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:42 am

I think there is negative venting, or commiseration that can continue the negativity.

And positive venting, such as seeing a counselor or psychologist. I know when I have seen my therapist when needed over the years, I felt so good after coming out of her office. But it was always venting with a constructive way of looking at the issues I was venting about.

Venting without a resolution of some kind may be non productive. I know when I was a young adult, I went to a group therapy meeting for dysfunction families and left after 3 sessions due to the constant venting that never resolved into something higher. It seemed they just wanted to stay in the hurt, bitter, negative place and not move past it.


Now the thread we have going here, for venting about clients who don't honor our time, services, fees or even our bodies I have found therapeutic. Hearing that I'm not alone in it helps. Also I find everyone seems to laugh about it and have a sense of humor, so I find that constructive, positive,venting.

I hope I'm expressing myself adequately.
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Re: venting feeds the flames

Postby Blisss on Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:57 am

holley wrote:Articles I've read indicate that venting increases aggression and hostility....Any research to support or disprove this would be of interest.

I think it's a valid concern, but perhaps you could start us off by posting links to the articles you've read? Failing that, maybe you could do some initial internet research yourself to find some proof of your stance, and direct us to what you find.
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Postby holley on Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:01 am

Spock, by venting I mean blowing off steam, expressing pet peeves and such.
Blisss, I thought inviting others to share their research before supporting a position was the way to go. But see your point and I like the idea of accommodating bliss.....

dailyheadlines.uark.edu/10290.htm

sitemaker.umich.edu/brad.bushman/files/bostonglobe.html

Venting is particularly damaging if one believes such catharsis is good...then one does it again and again in hopes of getting relief that never comes. It is linked with hostility, aggression, and has negative health outcomes.

However, in support of Spock's comments, repressing anger
is also damaging; having positive outlets (therapy, massage, running, etc.) for negative energy transforms the beast "Anything we bury, we bury alive".

The Crisis Prevention Institute states: "allow venting when possible, but isolate the situation by removing the audience."

This suggests that allowing celebrants to vent during a session is therapeutic.... it also suggests the common practice of venting on public forums is of questionable value.
Last edited by holley on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby softy515 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:30 am

To each his own. Who are we to judge the actions of others? If you don't want to participate in venting, ignore it.
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Postby holley on Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:41 am

Sometimes there is real danger, softly, in our preferences, biases and practices.

For example I was using Clove , an essential oil. Aromatherapists responded. Melb pointed out it was hepatoxic and, in a compromised liver, could cause damage and Rose of Sharon indicated it was so powerful she wouldn't think to apply it.

I felt informed, not judged. Though chagrined, I was grateful for their generous sharing and changed my practice

Venting, going by what I read, is poisonous.
"To each his own" does not apply, we have an obligation to do no further harm, and not "ignore it."
Perhaps I have insufficient data and that conclusion is in error. Have you or others read otherwise? Sometimes it is easy for me to just look at the facts that support my bias.
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Postby Breathe on Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:54 am

There's a big difference in your statement that "venting is dangerous," and melb's statement that clove EO is toxic to the liver. One statement is documented fact, and the other statement is conjecture, based on more opinion and theory.

In my personal experience, being able to vent about an issue often turns the issue into a non-issue, something I can let go of. So is my subjective experience more or less important that the person who finds venting to be "dangerous?"

Granted that negativity has the potential to breed more negativity, it should be acknowledged that blowing off accumulated steam can have a therapeutic effect.

There's an entire line of psychotherapy that focuses on issues created by "conflict-avoidant" people. As a function of our jobs, we cannot always dialogue directly with the people who are causing us problems. Thus is it important to have a safe place to discuss problems (which some may view as "venting.") This is healthy.

A distinction should be made between the person who vents that a client disrepected them, and the person who continually has the same issue and is "venting" all the time as a means to avoid fixing or resolving the issue. One action is healthy, one is not.

Blanket statements such as "venting is dangerous," or "venting increases aggression and hostility," are about as useful as saying "walking damages the feet," or "food makes you fat."
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Postby Spock on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:50 pm

I would have to agree with the entirety of Breathe===============
(and so would my cat Tonka, who finished that sentance by walking on my keyboard) post.
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Postby YoIdaho on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:55 pm

softy515 wrote:To each his own. Who are we to judge the actions of others? If you don't want to participate in venting, ignore it.



+1000000000

Oh sorry I was venting +1~M
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Postby softy515 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:04 pm

Thanks Breath, you took the words right out of my mouth.

I understand what you are saying Holly. You are taking it upon yourself to educate folks of all the horrible actions you see on this forum. Good for you. But respect that everyone is unique and your opinion isn't the only one.
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Postby shivashiva on Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:32 pm

softy515 wrote:Thanks Breath, you took the words right out of my mouth.

I understand what you are saying Holly. You are taking it upon yourself to educate folks of all the horrible actions you see on this forum. Good for you. But respect that everyone is unique and your opinion isn't the only one.


I'm sorry but I find this to be rude. Holley has been respectful and thoughtful in his views and how he has written them. I think it is a perfectly valid thread to discuss the usefulness of another thread. Some of us obviously find the "pet peeves" thread to be useful. Holley is questioning that, and doing so respectfully. He has never insinuated that his opinion is the only one. In fact, he was asking for the thoughts of others.

I also agree with everything Breathe said. I think she's consistently good at putting things in a way that many can understand. Her response, I'm guessing, is the kind of thing Holley was looking for: well thought out and detailed. I don't quite see the point of your responses, other than to be defensive towards Holley. He never labeled the "actions" of people on the forum. I never thought for a second that he was thinking people in that thread were acting "horrible."

softy515 wrote:To each his own. Who are we to judge the actions of others?
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Postby softy515 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:51 pm

I am sorry if that is how I am coming off.

He/she said the actions of the venting were 'questionable' not horrible. My exageration.

I also apoligize for not articulating my words as well as Breath.

I get a pretty good sense about someone's attitude and am a bit weird about holley's, in that it can be helpful but in a condesending way. Everyone is different and how we regard them differs too.

Thanks for sharing your opinion of me.
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Postby softy515 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:09 pm

holley wrote:
Venting, going by what I read, is poisonous.
"To each his own" does not apply, we have an obligation to do no further harm, and not "ignore it."
Perhaps I have insufficient data and that conclusion is in error. Have you or others read otherwise? Sometimes it is easy for me to just look at the facts that support my bias.


That implies that you or I can speak for another and what helps them get through the day and heal. While that sort of venting might be harmful for you, it might help me to get something off my chest.

Reading the vents have reminded me that we are all human and subject to imperfection. And that applies to the clients, as they forget sessions, forget to wash feet, ect. It reminds me to take a deep breath in, and remain positive.
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uh-oh

Postby holley on Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:30 pm

Softy, this thread was started with the intention of discussing research on venting. Blisss prompted me to offer documentation, supporting my bias, as a jumping off point, and I did so

That was the only research presented and it supported the idea that venting promotes aggression & hostility.

Why is this important?

If the research (and my extrapolation of it to massage) is valid, venting pet peeves in a public forum is detrimental to practitioners, celebrants, the field and the profession.

Breathe dismissed the findings offhand as conjecture and opined "blowing off steam can have a therapeutic effect" which is directly contradicted by the research. She along with you, Yoidaho and Spock (who wrongly projected Tonka's position on the keyboard as agreement when it clearly was the opposite) failing research (thanks again Blisss) shared opinions.

I challenge you to back up these opinions with research. Educate us!
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Re: uh-oh

Postby palpable on Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:11 pm

holley wrote: Spock (who wrongly projected Tonka's position on the keyboard as agreement when it clearly was the opposite)


:smt082 I don't know if it was meant this way, but this statement struck me as incredibly dry, witty humor!


holley wrote: I challenge you to back up these opinions with research. Educate us!


Just to set the tone a bit, I doubt any of us would argue the effectiveness of massage therapy, yet there are many who would ask for documented, researched proof before they will accept our opinions. Likewise, it would follow that what we may instinctively "know" is right for us (venting or not venting) may not be the same as what the research indicates.

It is also important to closely examine the research being used. I haven't read the articles you mentioned, holley, so I can't express an opinion on those specifically.
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Postby softy515 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:20 pm

Research most the time is irrelevent to me. Basically because one can find research to back any position.

You can find 1000 articles of research to back your views but it all boils down to each individual, do you know what I mean?

And I did educate.... I showed you how venting helped me. Others have said it helps them. Other folks venting helps remind me of our imperfections.
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Re: uh-oh

Postby Breathe on Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:47 pm

holley wrote:
Breathe dismissed the findings offhand as conjecture and opined "blowing off steam can have a therapeutic effect" which is directly contradicted by the research.


Not exactly. The two "studies" you posted, was an opinion piece about what worked better: venting vs sharing venting, and an editorial that commented on actual studies of people who expressed anger and rage in aggressive ways (screaming, yelling, hitting things with a baseball bat, using a punching bag,) NOT "venting" such as is being done here.

That's the thing with research, it's very important to establish specific parameters, such as "people who vent road frustration by screaming at other drivers, vs. people who deal with road frustration by deep breathing and listening to relaxing music."

Again, I will say that claiming "venting increases aggression and hostility" is about as useful as saying "food makes you fat."

You, holley, then took these editorials about research and extrapolated that they should be applied to a mild venting thread about pet peeves. The correlation is a stretch at best.

You have failed to present research that supports your opinion regarding sharing pet peeves being detrimental to practitioners, "celebrants" and the profession. (Ha!)

I challenge you to back up these opinions with research.
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Postby holley on Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:48 pm

Thank-you for the caveats, palpable.
The topic was specifically listed under research to prompt an exploration of the literature on the subject.

I agree that it's best to "live the beauty you see, there are a thousand ways to kiss the earth".
Evidence indicates venting is no beauty, it causes health issues ,promotes aggression and hostility.... despite one's beliefs on the matter.

My son, Adam, once asked: Dad,what do you really know?"
I put my finger in the air to pontificate,my jaw muscles moved but nothing came out until I waved my hand at him and said: "I'll get back to you."

It's "not what we know that causes trouble but what we know that just ain't so". Venting, it appears thus far, is a popular myth which promotes, rather then ameliorates harm.

I prefer to hold beliefs tentatively so that, when proven wrong, I don't have to eat too much crow(where did that expression originate?).
If evidence to the contrary arises on this topic, the purging will be intense....
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Postby maestra on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:39 pm

holley wrote: I prefer to hold beliefs tentatively so that, when proven wrong, I don't have to eat too much crow(where did that expression originate?).
If evidence to the contrary arises on this topic, the purging will be intense....


Careful what you ask for holley, we just might have info on that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_crow ;)
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bye,bye black bird

Postby holley on Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:07 am

I'm trying, breathe, I'm trying....

Dr. Ellen Weber (brainbasedbusiness.com/2006/10
i_just_need_to_vent.html) states:

"as far as the brain goes venting is like swallowing a bottle of Chlorox."

people who vent:

1) grow dendrite brain cell connections to vent even faster
next time.
2) create a pattern in the basil ganglia so anger comes out
more when stressed.
3) see fewer answers and sustain fewer friendships then
people who reflect, say nothing or give thoughtful
responses.
4) cause conflicts that spread to other people....
5) shut down learning and blind themselves to other
possibilities because of cortisol hormone that increases
during venting.

thanks, maestra, but there's no recipe!
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Postby blissed out on Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:06 am

Holley,

I could not access the last page that you quoted, so I cannot give an opinion upon that author's opinion. But it is someone's blog, is it not? Not actual research papers...

All I know is what I know from my own personal experience. Venting can help. It releases the frustration and anger so that I may forgive and forget. I am in agreement with the statements Breathe has made. She does a much more eloquent job at it than I do! ;) No, I don't have the research to back up my opinion, nor the time to search for such research. (spending time on this board takes up the 15 minutes I get to myself each day!!! :lol: )
put on your big girl panties and deal with it! =)
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Postby palpable on Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:07 am

http://www.brainbasedbusiness.com/2006/ ... _vent.html

I found the article, and posted a link that will, hopefully, work for anyone wanting to follow up.

The article in question, though written by a doctor (she holds a PhD in curriculum and development) who seems to have a legitimate grasp of and background in the subject, is a blog.

If the debate is going to be one based on research, it is important to provide research articles that are peer reviewed, such as those published at pubmed .

One of the important pieces in the research puzzle is looking at the research with a critical eye. Does the author critique his or her own work? Are references provided to follow up? Has there been peer review?

Holley, don't take this as a slam. That is not my intent. I am just trying to offer resources that may help you make your point. Blogs can be great, but there has to be something to back up the opinions presented within them.
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Postby Spock on Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:06 am

I can see what both Holly and the other posters are saying. Holly is trying to be helpful and doing it respectfully. But others feel that who they are and how they react is being judged, even if it is done nicely and with the best intentions.


I think the core issue here for Holly (and everyone) to remember that everyone is in a different place in their progress, a different point along the round in their soul's mission, healing, etc. And that it is not "less than" in evolving or growth. We cannot know what the plan is for them.

And that wherever they are is where they are supposed to be and we need to be at peace with that and let them walk at their own divinely guided pace.
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huh?

Postby holley on Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:00 am

At the onset, it was stated that articles I've read indicate that venting increases aggression/hostility and research, pro and con would be welcome.

Links to the articles were posted. They have been dismissed as insufficient, inadequate or from questionables sources.

I find it curious that evidence and research are required of only one side in this discussion (and the implications of that evidence ignored). What is that about?
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Postby palpable on Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:41 am

I would put forth the idea that the onus of finding and exploring the research falls toward you, holley, because you are attempting to prove a point. No one else, so far, has implied that they need research. What they are doing is working for them, so why research it?

In the opening post, you state:

"Articles I've read indicate that venting increases aggression and hostility ."

Therefore, in order to support that point, you would need to supply the data. In the case of research, there are parameters that make the data more or less sufficient and adequate. While I don't doubt that the sources you are using have some sound basis, they don't fit the parameters of a more formal research article.

Mind you, I don't think it takes a specific data base or certain number of double-blind studies to make a legitimate point. I think we would all agree, in our line of work and from personal experience, that the power of a compassionate presence and therapeutic intent is evident- researched or not.

But in the context of this discussion, you may find that research articles and studies that fit within the peer-reviewed and data-oriented spectrum will do more to strengthen your point.

And it is also important to bear in mind that, even with research, what works for me or you or maestra may not work for blissed out or Breathe. Even the most intensively researched items such as over the counter pharmaceuticals do not work the same for everyone, and they all come with a list of both common and rare side effects.

Again, my intent is not to discourage you. I am actually really enjoying the discussion going on here in regards to research.
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