What makes a great massage/charging too much

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Dublin
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Post by Dublin » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:21 pm

What a joke for a forum hahahaha the fact that moderators allow this kind of response and action shows it for what it is.

In every forum there is a spell checker who wants to call it out, get over yourself and be more kind.

I could care less if i mispelled a few words, left out a few commas, or misaligned a paragraph to get my point across.

All these posts really encourage me as a human being, im so glad i dont need to treat people like im being treated just to feel important on the internet.
Not that i needed this forum to remind me of the facts but its rad to be only 20 years old and know that i am more kind, resposible, and caring than some you 'adults'

Some simple text and discussion on opinions has granted me that knowledge and rendered people like Sherry Dudik a mean hearted fool of a person.

Peace out, and yes "much love"

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Breathe
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Post by Breathe » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:22 pm

Wow, I'm starting to wish Brandon Raynor would come back. :shock:

:biglaugh:

(I hope that isn't going to be like "beetlejuice" :smt087 )
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Blisss
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Post by Blisss » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:33 pm

Dublin wrote:(Breathe) brought the downfall of the post and that its called Trolling. if you'd like to learn more about how to treat people in a web forum, grow up or search google for forum ettiquete.
For the record, here's a definition of Troll (from Wikipedia), and it accurately describes Dublin, not Breathe: "In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others."

Regarding forum etiquette. Here is the top rule listed for members of Bodywork Online:
http://www.bodyworkonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=452
"Be courteous. Respect others. Argue with the post, not the poster."

Dublin, you are the one who has broken forum etiquette from the get-go, and continue to do so in every post. You're not at a place where you can see that; maybe someday that will change.

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Sherry Dudik
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Post by Sherry Dudik » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:38 pm

Dublin wrote: Not that i needed this forum to remind me of the facts but its rad to be only 20 years old and know that i am more kind, resposible, and caring than some you 'adults'

Some simple text and discussion on opinions has granted me that knowledge and rendered people like Sherry Dudik a mean hearted fool of a person.

Peace out, and yes "much love"
Dublin: I am probably one of the nicest, most caring people you would ever meet. Your comments are so mean-spirited that I felt maybe a humorous response would be in order. You continue to attack people on this forum that we all care about -- and you have no idea what they are all about!

I honestly can't think of one person on this forum who is just out there to make money and doesn't care about his/her clients! They would not be posting on this forum and asking questions if that was the case!

Please come back and join us when you have learned enough and experienced enough as a practicing MT! You will find it invaluable!

Am I spinning my wheels here, gang????

Sherry
"There is no such thing as chance, only patterns we do not understand." Harlan Ellison

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Post by Blisss » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:46 pm

I just want to say that Sherry's a sweetheart, and totally rocks!!

:smt049 :dancingparty:

Dublin
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Post by Dublin » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:46 pm

Sherry, since your actively involved in this topic now ill respond to your last comment and be done.
Sherry Dudik wrote: You continue to attack people on this forum that we all care about -- and you have no idea what they are all about!

I honestly can't think of one person on this forum who is just out there to make money and doesn't care about his/her clients!

Read it all again i did not attack anyone on this forum, when provoked i defeneded myself. Also i did not enter this forum to inflame it, i had an opinion which if you read from the begining is actually in line with what all was being said prior to it.

Did i ever say anyone on this forum was out there just to make money, NO.
I said there are people 'out there' who do and that was an agreed response to prior comments.

The problem here is you all think i said these things, keep thinking away thats fine, if you want to be correct than read what was written and know.
Just because you think i attacked people doesnt mean i did. fact being i did not. So now i will leave and never return to this site as i dont think it holds ANY value any longer.

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Post by moogie » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:52 pm

Please, it's time for everyone to take a break and cool down.

BWOL is a place for professional people to come and exchange ideas. It is not a place for name calling, personal attacks or profanity.

Please refer to FAQ what is expected of you as a BWOL member: http://www.bodyworkonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=452

We are all adults, let's act like adults.

Thank you,
Angie

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Post by karmassage » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:23 pm

there's an old indian proverb, that i can only paraphrase...

"in order for healing to begin, an exchange must take place"

money. food. referrals. barter. something must take place.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do - Rumi

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Post by nybor7 » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:14 pm

Someone please lock this thread.
:)
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r e l a x - South Carolina

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Post by melb » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:14 pm

Breathe wrote:Wow, I'm starting to wish Brandon Raynor would come back. :shock:
I'm amazed how often those that suffer from missing apostrophe syndrome can be so similar......... spooky


I'd not bothered looking at this thread, not sure when it got split up (that probably should've been noted on the thread when split), but taken away from the other thread, it certainly reads as pretty venomous.

fudja / aka Greatlakes
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Post by fudja / aka Greatlakes » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:28 pm

melb wrote:
Breathe wrote:Wow, I'm starting to wish Brandon Raynor would come back. :shock:
I'm amazed how often those that suffer from missing apostrophe syndrome can be so similar......... spooky


I'd not bothered looking at this thread, not sure when it got split up (that probably should've been noted on the thread when split), but taken away from the other thread, it certainly reads as pretty venomous.
Personally, I rarely use the apostrophe myself, and I dont bother to use spell check on message boards. I read the posts and dont pick apart spelling and grammar, or is that grammer...

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palpable
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Post by palpable » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:44 pm

melb wrote:
I'd not bothered looking at this thread, not sure when it got split up (that probably should've been noted on the thread when split),
Good point melb. I split the thread, and noted in the original thread that the current discussion was moved here. Originally, it began in the client section:

http://www.bodyworkonline.com/forum/vie ... php?t=7855

That discussion was about what makes a great massage. The thread veered substantially into what you have read here.

Sorry for any confusion, but I hope that helps clear things up a little.
Move on as quickly as you can to people who get you and what you do. -Robert Chute

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Post by terab » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:25 pm

Blisss wrote:I agree with Breathe, GrateLakes and Dublin. I believe we should be able to make a good living as massage therapists, but I also think the best massage therapists truly care about each client and aren't in it only for the money. Maybe that's what Dublin was trying to say? If you've ever received a massage from someone who was just "going through the motions" then you've felt the difference.
i agree too. and i also think we can stop attacking dublin. seriously i have to agree. but i'll tell you it's not only what therapists charge that blows my mind, it's what some people will pay. any therapist who charges over $75 an hour is ridiculous. that's what i think. i don't care how good someone's massage is - there is NO WAY it's worth $100+ an hour. and anyone willing to pay that kind of money for a massage is either a moron or has way too much.

ps. there are many people on here that spell like crap and we're not attacking them. come on now. my opinion is that there are some people on this board that keep threads like this going because they keep trying to get in the last word. leave it alone and be nice. there is too much attacking going on here!

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Breathe
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Post by Breathe » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:50 pm

terab wrote:and anyone willing to pay that kind of money for a massage is either a moron or has way too much.
Nice tera, nice judgment.
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Breathe
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Post by Breathe » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:59 pm

You know, along the lines of "how much is too much," I think this leads naturally into a discussion of what type of massage a person does.

Say, for instance, you have a person who is near suicidal due to post-surgical pain. Let's also say she has been to her doctors, neurologists, etc, who have told her it's all in her head.

Now, let's pretend she has a choice of therapists. One is a swedish massage therapist, who charges the going rate for that area of, say, $60 an hour. The other therapist charges $95/hour, but is trained and specializes in orthopedic massage and pain management. Is she a "moron" for paying more? Is she really paying more?

Do you really imagine for a minute that the $60 an hour therapist is going to cost less in the long run? What about the cost to the client emotionally and psychologically as she continues to deal with the pain? Is a few weeks of excruciating pain shave off worth the extra $35/hour to see someone with hundreds of hours of additional focused training?

Example #2: Wealthy business traveler, she wants to get a massage while she's away on business. She's staying at the Hilton. They charge $115/50 minute massage. It's in the hotel. She can go downstairs and get her massage, then be back up in her room in an hour and 15. To go out and find a therapist who will see her for $60 will involve not only locating a therapist, but traveling to see that cheaper therapist. The wealthy businesswoman's time is worth several hundred dollars an hour. Is she a "moron" for payint $115+ to save a couple of hours?

Many circumstances, many answers.
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terab
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Post by terab » Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:12 pm

Breathe wrote:You know, along the lines of "how much is too much," I think this leads naturally into a discussion of what type of massage a person does.

Say, for instance, you have a person who is near suicidal due to post-surgical pain. Let's also say she has been to her doctors, neurologists, etc, who have told her it's all in her head.

Now, let's pretend she has a choice of therapists. One is a swedish massage therapist, who charges the going rate for that area of, say, $60 an hour. The other therapist charges $95/hour, but is trained and specializes in orthopedic massage and pain management. Is she a "moron" for paying more? Is she really paying more?

Do you really imagine for a minute that the $60 an hour therapist is going to cost less in the long run? What about the cost to the client emotionally and psychologically as she continues to deal with the pain? Is a few weeks of excruciating pain shave off worth the extra $35/hour to see someone with hundreds of hours of additional focused training?

Example #2: Wealthy business traveler, she wants to get a massage while she's away on business. She's staying at the Hilton. They charge $115/50 minute massage. It's in the hotel. She can go downstairs and get her massage, then be back up in her room in an hour and 15. To go out and find a therapist who will see her for $60 will involve not only locating a therapist, but traveling to see that cheaper therapist. The wealthy businesswoman's time is worth several hundred dollars an hour. Is she a "moron" for payint $115+ to save a couple of hours?

Many circumstances, many answers.
well i suppose your example of #2 fits in my has too much money catagory. the first example...no she's not a moron. but why can't she find a therapist who charges $60 who is trained in pain management massage? just because someone charges $95 an hour doesn't mean they are any good. i suppose if the only good therapist in someone's town charges $95 well then that's what you would have to pay. but with the number of therapists out there these days, that can't be true.

why does the type of massage someone offers change the rate? especially if it's by $30 or more an hour.

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Post by Breathe » Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:27 pm

So the #2 example is a moron because she has wealth, and finds it more efficacious to pay extra for convenience?

In example #1, the $95 or $100 or $110 an hour therapist doesn't deserve to charge that rate? What if she's spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours for additional training? What if she provides detailed documentation for the sessions? What if she helps the client with the pain (and thus the suicidal inclination) in just a few sessions? What if she doesn't? Does it really matter, (or make someone a "moron") for choosing the person they feel is best suited to help them?

Is it really that hateful for a therapist to charge $100/hour?

So tell me, does your view that people who spend money for luxuries or quality are "morons" extend to someone who dines at a fine restaurant where the steak dinner costs $54 a la carte? What about someone who pays $3 for a single chocolate truffle? Designer shoes? Every single person you pass on the road who is driving a Mercedes?

What about the person who lives in Portland, which has a very fine Oncology program at the local hospital, but chooses to fly their 4 year old to Johns Hopkins for cancer treatment, so they can try and secure the best treatment possible, even though it might cost them 10s of thousands of dollars more? Is that person a "moron" for paying far more than the norm?

Who are you to judge?
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Post by BJB-LMP » Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:45 pm

Wait - if an MT charges $75/hr (the top rate you'll allow an MT, Tera), and does 15 sessions a week, and works 50 weeks in the year (this all allows for cancellations/vacation/etc), that's a top gross of $56,000/year for any MT anywhere in the US. Take out taxes and expenses, and that's about $28,000 takehome pay. That's the most you find it reasonable for any MT to net? I'm not trying to argue, just trying to get a sense of what you think is OK in the profession. Really, $28,000? Because I don't know about where you live, but where I live, with houses starting at a quarter million minimum and a kid to put through college, that's just not gonna do it.

I know that "just because someone charges $95 an hour doesn't mean they are any good," but it sounds like you think that if they charge that much, they *probably* aren't any good. (Am I reading too much into that?) Honestly the people I know, have seen, and have taken classes from who charge super-high prices, *are* better MTs than most lower-priced people. Not that we lower-priced people are no good, but really, without exception so far, every person I've been to who sets their own high price has been a really really high-quality therapist, with special skills and talents above the norm (and above mine, oh how I hate to admit it!), and also sometimes decades of experience. Have you been to high-priced people in your area and been unimpressed? Just wondering, because that's not my experience.
-Beccy

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Post by melb » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:03 am

many many many people are time poor rather than money poor, they are the ones that are prepared to pay extra to have home visits, they are the ones that use the spa in the hotel, they are the ones that use the spa close to their office building where the rents per foot are a LOT more than out in the burbs, and the prices reflect it. They're not morons, they value their own time at more than the extra that they are charged.

There are the people that are interested in the label (spa name) and will pay anything.

I don't make judgments about people as to whether they can afford a massage or not - I've had too many people saying that a massage is too expensive and then they talk about their 6 week cruise or whatever - everyone has different priorities and what they spend it on is their choice. Some of the market wants to pay Massage Envy/school/new MT/etc rates, some of the market is prepared to pay the average local rate, some of the market is prepared to pay more. Looking for a bargain or paying a more expensive fee does not necessarily make someone a moron.

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Post by Vita » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:29 am

terab wrote: well i suppose your example of #2 fits in my has too much money catagory.
I've fallen into example #2 for the reasons mentioned on a few occassions. Needless to say this revelation that I have "too much money" is quite exciting! Wait until my husband hears about this! :lol:

Of course, he may not be as happy when he finds out that I'm a moron for paying that money at the hotel instead of wandering around a city I wasn't familiar with or spending time I didn't have trying to find a legitimate local therapist who does incalls later in the evening...

Seriously though, you've made some pretty big sweeping statements about both therapists and clients. Have you taken into consideration the basic laws of supply and demand, different overhead for different areas in one city, different amounts of ceu's, different investments in surroundings/equipment depending on each individual therapists' priorities? And for those moronic clients, have you considered their priorities, or everything that is important to them when searching for a therapist? How exactly did you come to your conclusion? Perhaps there will be more understanding if you take the time to show us what lead up to your posts.

Thanks!
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Post by Masthera » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:22 am

Per request
If a moderator is reading this please feel free to delete my registered account i would no longer like to be a part of this community and regret signing up.
I have made Dublin's account inactive. Please continue on with the adult portion of this very valuable discussion.

Thanks.
"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal."
- Henry Ford

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Sherry Dudik
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Post by Sherry Dudik » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:26 am

Excellent points, BJB, Melb and Vita!

And, Breathe, your explanation and examples of why someone would pay more are excellent. Continued education in specialized fields (as well as equipment etc. purchased to pursue that specialty) cost the therapist big money! Breathe has chosen to continue her education in order to be even more effective with her clients.

When I was suffering from a severe shoulder/arm problem that had kept me out of work for three months (I was a freelance writer and the doctors could find nothing to help!) -- I GLADLY paid a much higher fee for an MFR specialist who solved the entire problem in two sessions! And he is still my therapist of choice even though it costs twice as much per session. I got my life back due to his expertise -- AND decided to go back to school to become an MT at the age of 53. It was that impressive.

Believe me, many many hours of strictly Swedish/Relaxation massage would not have solved my problem! It required additional knowledge and I was more than willing to pay for it. (And, no, I am not a "moron" -- and find the term offensive.)

Keep up with your more expensive squishing, Breathe! You are worth it! :smt023

Sherry
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Post by Spock » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:43 am

Well, just "wow" to the posts of the ex-member. You all have said replied better than I could have.

But I wanted to add that we live in a society that values money. For example, when I was just starting out, I offered a huge discount to attract clients. I did not get anyone. But when I charged top rates, people came. They figure if your not charging a lot, you must not be any good. That is just the way their minds work, like it or not.


Also it's amazing the poverty mind that people feel anyone in the healing arts has to take on, or they are not being of service to humanity.We must be real. It is very hard to go to the cashier at the supermarket..."Let's barter, I am paying in neck massage/energy, ok?"

Something to remember is that not everyone is getting a massage to be "healed" and not every massage your supposed to be "healing".

I am also a energy worker as well as a massage therapist. I think of getting paid a good rate as God/Universe, whatever you like to call it allowing me to make this money so that I can continue to do this for people. Otherwise, I'd have to work at a different job and no one would be able to get work from me.

Making a good wage from this allows me to continue to help others in this way. In exchange I get to work in a way that I feel totally blessed for what I do.
Just my view.
Last edited by Spock on Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Bodywork_Guy » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:16 am

Is the coast clear? Whew! Glad that verbal melee is over. :roll:

On the topic of rates, although I am one of the newest therapists in town I set my rates higher than others. Several of the old-timers (no disrespect meant) told me I'd never get any business with my rates as much as $15 more per hour than them.

A funny thing has happened though, I've actually gained some of their clients.

It's great because I would never be able to afford Waslaski, Dalton or others if I was only making $45 an hour. And that sure beats the attitude of these other local MT's who want the quickest, cheapest CE's possible.
James Baugh, LMT

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Post by RelaxandRejuvenate » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:47 am

Vita wrote: Have you taken into consideration the basic laws of supply and demand, different overhead for different areas in one city, different amounts of ceu's, different investments in surroundings/equipment depending on each individual therapists' priorities?
Of course not...that would require THINKING instead of an EMOTIONAL reaction.

Breathe is 100% right.

And as a company that makes its entire living on MORONS, we are happy to report that the MORON business is great. Our SAME MORON sales are up 20% over last year and we have hotels catering to MORONS lining up for our services.

We now have 15 FT Employees (with benefits, thank you) and 75 contractors all making a good living thanks to MORONS.

Clearly, we are monsters. The world would be a much better place - and our industry much more pure and altruistic - if we just fired our employees and let our contractors go and left the MORONS without our services.

Nothing breeds success like success. Charge more, people take you more seriously and perceive you to be better. That can be more skilled, offering better service or a better experience. Higher rates just mean you have higher expectations to deliver against.

WalMart aint Neimans, but they are both very successful. And it has nothing to do with the prices they charge. In retail, the magic formula is margin / sq. foot. The two have vastly different margins and vastly different cost of building a square foot of retail space, but in the end it works out for both of them.

In Massage, it is all about price and volume. You can only have so much volume in a day or in a career, so you had best maximize your price.

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